Shirdi Sai Baba and a Few Dubious Miracles
Shirdi Sai Baba is a rock star in our family. The Elvis who continues to live, breathe, eat and sleep in the hearts of some of my family members almost a century after his death – thanks to the blind devotion and dishonest, deluded propaganda of millions of mindless devotees (There’s also been a TV serial on his life). Some in my family are life-long devotees and die-hard fans of this so-called “saint”. They believe in Sai Baba’s miracles so much that even the smallest things are now considered miracles divinely executed by this baba(saint). When I was a believer, I used to faintly believe in some of them, but now that my blindness in God and religion has been cured I see how ludicrous and farcical these claims are. However, any sceptical questions about his life or miracles are sneered upon by his believers and inevitably leads to livid remarks like “you don’t have the right to say such things about baba”. Can someone tell these believers that it is not only our right but our moral duty to question such dubious claims. Btw, did someone say that freedom of speech is guaranteed by our constitution?
Believers often forget, that just because they respect a person doesn’t necessarily mean that othersare bound by some law to respect that person as well. And, the hypocrisy is even more shameless when the same devotee who would turn red with anger at someone’s criticism of his/her object of devotion turn around immediately and criticize someone else’s object of devotion. For example, I have come across many Hindus who wouldn’t tolerate any criticism of Krishna and yet wouldn’t hesitate for a moment before cracking dirty jokes about prophet Mohammad. Muslims and Christian are no less guilty of such behavior either.
Anyway, I digress. The object of this post was to show how blind, deluded and ludicrous some of these claims of “divine miracle” are. Recently I stumbled upon this blog (shirdi-saibaba-mydeva) quite by chance and couldn’t stop lauging at the stories published as miracles of Sai baba or “ Sai leela” as the devotees like to call the miracles. I remembered when I used to be blind and deluded too and was laughing at myself for ever believing in such stupid mumbo-jumbo.
If you are bored, feeling sleepy and coffee is not doing the trick I highly recommend blogs like the one above or thisone. I wonder why people bother to subscribe to joke-of-the-day anyway when we have such crackingly humorous blogs around. You will be amazed at what passes off as miracles and keep wondering how apparently nice, sane, intelligent people can believe, participate and propagate such ridiculous claims of miracles by a long-dead saint (question to self too).
Ok. So here are the synopses of the 3 latest posts from this blog -
I Am Carefully Watching Your Inner Heart
There’s this guy (girl?) Ryan who goes to Surinam on a holiday and every morning prays to Baba to show him a miracle . And guess what miracle he(she) is hoping for?
“I always used to pray to Baba that Sai let me buy something for you”
WOW!! Isn’t that a miracle worth asking for? It’s not world peace. It’s not alleviation of poverty. It’s not eradication of disease which I am sure would be a true miracle. Nothing of that sort but a selfish innocent wish. Anyways, so one day this guy finds a giant idol of saibaba at a shopping mall and goes crazy (LOL!!). He requests his parents to buy it but his parents refuse. That evening he goes to the same shopping mall (miraculously !!) with some family friends and asks his sister to buy it and after dinner his sister obliges and buys him the idol !! Surprised ?? Shocked ?? Inquisitive as to what was the miracle in buying a doll for a pesky child. Here’s the answer from the person himself.
“While I was seeing other Murties (idols) of Baba I realised my murti is special (oh, oh, I can’t wait !! pray tell us how ?) from others I cannot explain in words as what special but something very special which can only be felt (Ah! I thought so ) . Really I still don’t know as how we went to the same mall on the same day and how I bought that Baba’s murti ,its nothing but Baba’s leela only which Sai showed me and increased my faith in his lotus feet. “
Btw did I tell you the miraculous story of how one day, I wanted a compact fluorescent light bulb (CFL bulb) and miraculously drove to the same Walmart twice in one day, in the same car and wearing the exact same clothes and bought a spanking new CFL bulb - the last one on the shelf. And did I forget to mention how special it was. No. No. I cannot describe it. You have to feel it to know how special it was. What a miracle !! Praise the Lord !!
I am constantly amazed at the level of infantile thinking of people who write and publish such stuff . Now would they have called it a miracle had some child asked for a barbie doll and got it. Nope !! We also have to consider that this person didn’t find the idol deep in the Sahara desert or the jungles of Amazon. He actually went an bought it from a shop. Now isn’t that a miracle ? Btw, Surinam’s largest ethnic group constitutes of Hindus (~28%) who are descendants of Indian workers brought by the British more than a century ago. So the chances of finding a famous idol was pretty high in such a country. I challenge the person to ask baba to show the same miracle in the Sahara or Siberia or Antarctica where the probability of finding such an idol is remote. Why not from thin air ? If baba still shows up, THAT would probably qualify as a miracle !!
My Life Rotates Around Sai – Vikram
Vikram is atheist (what good is religious propaganda if it cannot convert non-believers to believers) who is also a struggling engineering student. A professor of his has a grudge against him and is failing him constantly in his exam. He has managed to pass all engineering exams but has been flunking in this professor’s paper for the last 3 years. Then one day he escorts his cousin for a holy pilgrimage to Shirdi (the home town of Sai baba) and just for the sake of it offers his prayers and asks baba to help him pass the exam. While returning from Shirdi, this guy has high fever and vomits several times. On returning home, his mother gives him some milk and medicine. But (surprisingly??!!) he gets well the next morning and he’s amazed that he got well so soon (read miraculously). But wait ! That’s not the end of the story although you probably guessed it. A week later a friend of his calls him and guess what he conveys ? Lo and behold, he PASSED the exam !!!
And here is what he thinks of this incident
“Today, I realize how Baba had pulled this sparrow (me) towards him. How he cleaned my body of impurity and negativity by making me vomit throughout the trip back to Mumbai. How great he is, I cannot explain.”
How could this happen?!! How can a person who has been given medicine be cured so quickly of fever? This must be the first incident in the annals of human history where a person has been cured overnight after taking medicine. Never mind the fact that the fever may have been caused by excessive heat, bad food, polluted drinking water or a variety of other factors. Nopes. It must be this dead saint cleaning his body of impurity from the heavens. Oh ! and I almost forgot. Silly me. Every time you see someone vomiting or running high fever, don’t give him(her) any medicine. Because, it is actually the Sai working his magic from his heavenly abode and cleaning millions of people of impurity and negativity.
And the exam incident? How can a person who has been studying one single subject for the last 3 years pass the exam? He did study and physically appear for the exam didn’t he? He probably was a straight A student too? So logic dictates, that if you have been studying a subject for 3 years and physically appear to take the exam, you should surely fail, right? So how did he pass? What changed the heart of such a heartless professor? It is also unlikely that the professor or the department got tired of him and kicked him out. After all they lovingly kept him for 3 years, didn’t they? No, No. That’s impossible. It must be Sai’s miracle. And, Yes, 2 + 2 = 5.
Sai Helped Me Also On O’Hare Airport
Ranjith is trying to reach Cincinnati on Christmas day but misses his connecting flight due to bad weather at Chicago O’hare airport. He doesn’t have a cell phone and when he calls up his friend in Cincinnati from the pay phone his friend doesn’t pick up the phone (Baba’s miracle after all !). He also doesn’t have his friend’s address, so is wondering what would happen if he reaches Cincinnati and his friend isn’t there (we can only hope that his friend is smart enough to check flight schedules before coming) . Anyway this person is crazy scared and is almost on the verge of tears as it seems he won’t get a flight to Cincinnati in the next day or two (and what if baba forgets to check his miracle-manifesting appointment book and doesn’t come to his help?!).
So he musters enough courage to approach the airlines staff and asks them if they can put him on the 9:30 pm flight to Cincinnati. One of them, after looking at the computer monitor, informs him that all the flights are booked and he has to wait for the next available flight. But then out of nowhere (by baba’s miracle) the other staff says ” hey wait its not possible because my system says that there is one seat” (the fact that this staff knew instantly and confidently claimed that it not her system making the error but the other staff’s, is also a miracle if you come to think of it). Anyway both of them are confused about this discrepancy but finally gives the seat to Ranjith who safely reaches Cincinnati to find his friend waiting for him, even after 4-5 hours. A Miracle indeed !!
Reading this story, one would be inclined to think that such incidents happen one-in-a-thousand times (or a million, which still would not make it a miracle but a highly improbable event statistically). But unfortunately it is not. In all my years of travel, whenever I have been stuck due to bad weather, I have always been able to find a flight within a few hours of the weather getting better, even when all flights were booked. In fact when I first came to the States, I remember missing my connecting flight (which was the last flight that night) from Chicago Ohare due to exactly the same reason (weather) and the airline not only provided me with food and hotel accommodation (which they are not obligated to do as per their policies), they also could provide me a seat on a flight the next morning, in spite of all flights being booked (and I have never been a Sai devotee. Maybe baba is just too kind to everyone including agnostics like me whom he himself didn’t like too much). Yes, people have been stranded at airports for days due to bad weather but not due to flights being booked (the fact that he could fly to Cincinnati means that weather was flight-worthy) and if it happens, it’s more of a rarity than a rule (remember these airlines are running a business and wouldn’t want that for the sake of their business).
Moreover, if technical glitches in softwares were highly uncommon (not that there was a glitch but maybe the first airline staff overlooked an empty seat) and this gentleman was the only one out of several thousand passengers who got a ticket due to that (which I doubt), then it could still be considered a miracle. But anyone who has travelled considerably or worked with any reservation software will attest that such software glitches do happen and people often find themselves in favorable or unfavorable circumstances irrespective of their belief in Sai baba.
In this post, I have taken a few examples from that blog to show how faith operates and how it makes one blind to other possibilities. It shows that some people are so blinded by their faith that they seem to find miracles in everything and even when there isn’t any, they interpret events in such a way so as to make them seem like miracles. I am not a psychiatrist but it is possible that a belief in miracles make these people feel special. Makes them feel that someone is out there looking out for them. For these people the outcome of a favorable event has one and only one possibility – the deity or their object of devotion working in ways to help them achieve what they want.
Yet, they never stop to ask ,if Sai baba is really that powerful why isn’t he helping each and every devotee and granting each and every wish? What is so special about them that baba favors when thousands of other Sai devotees suffer from poverty and disease and mishaps? Why is their suffering no less than people of other faiths or of agnostics/atheists (I personally know of an extremely devoted Sai devotee who suffers from excruciating arthritic pain )? These people forget that for every claim of a so-called miracle, there are thousands of other devotees who are suffering from the same problem or affliction without getting cured. The typical answer is “it is their karma”, “they are not devoted enough” or “Sai in his divine wisdom knows best” and the best one ” You will know if you accept him in your heart” . Oh Really ! Then why don’t you tell me.
These devotees are so rationally-challenged that they are always making the same connection – if X then only Y. It’s never if X then W, Y or Z. These devotees are always trying to escape the reality of the situation with dogmatic excuses like the ones I mentioned above. Not that they never have doubts. They do, but as soon as they have them they drown it under the weight of their own blindness and call it “faith”, and they are mighty proud of it.
Frankly, I don’t care whom they are praying to and how they are praying. Well, Ok I take that back. I do care a bit. Yes, I do want them to think and reason. I do want them to critically evaluate these questions and then decide whether to keep them or to throw them away . But hey, I can’t expect people to live their lives by my standards. I can’t cure a blind person if he/she willingly accepts his/her blindness. However my contention is with the false, misleading propaganda and outright lies some of these people engage in. The huge leaps of logic they are wiling to make to prove a point. The dogmatic insistence that something is true without providing reasonable proof. Yes, I do take that seriously and will continue to write,ridicule and point it out. If that means offending their religious “sentiments” , if that means “hurting” their inocent ”feelings”, then so be it !!
Aum Sai Ram Brother,
Great amount thinking and logic has been applied this post. Good sharp thinking is necessary many a times.
About Shirdi Sai Baba being a star, yes He is ! And His popularity is NOT because He is sharp at logic, but out of His tremendous love for His devotees and when one gives love one gets it back.
He is not long-dead, as mentioned somewhere in this post but is alive, much more alive than you and me who breathes and eat and think and feel that one is alive. If aliveness is subdued to just breathing and eating and moving around, you are probably right. But life and it’s mysteries cannot be just caged in logic and theologies.
About miracles there were and are many miracles that were and are performed. But as Sai Baba said He gives people what they want so that He can give what he wants to give them.
Sai Baba is a Spiritual Master He is here to infuse love and devotion in people. To set people free of inner turmoils and agony. Those childish looking miracles the start of something big. It’s the love for Sai Baba that makes His devotee to think of Him, whatever the occasion may be. When one is in love one always think of the object of love. What ever one sees one would like to relate with what is the loved object is.
Here object of love is Sai Baba, engrossed in divine and love and care. Sooner or later the lovers will catch that quality. It is His way of driving people towards love and compassion.
One can just think of oneself and see, what you love you will always be engrossed in it. You mind always working on your love. If you notice yourself you will see it is.
I think the following link will be interesting and challenging for you to read on different subjects like miracles and love and God and divine.
http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/anth.html
Even if you go through Shirdi Sai Baba you will find more than you found on one particular blog. Only if your love for finding faults is put aside.
P. S. Have chosen not to publish your comment on one of devotees experiences on my blog, not because it was not like or hated. But for a simple reason, that someone’s heart could get hurt by what has been written and that is not needed. He remembers Sai Baba and so it is His job to let Him know what is right or wrong. Not yours or mine.
Thanks Alpesh for your comment.
About Shirdi Sai Baba being a star, yes He is !
You can claim whatever you want. That doesn’t mean that your claim is true. Most mothers see a star in their children, no matter how difficult or how normal that child may be. This is always out of blind love and not out of reason or logic. If you consider him a star then good for you.
“He is not long-dead, ……. but is alive, much more alive than you and me who breathes and eat and think and feel that one is alive”
He is dead in every sense of the word we say someone else is clinically dead. It’s just like Elvis Presley. Inspite of die-hard fans claiming that he is still “alive” the fact that he is clinically dead doesn’t change. If you mean that he is alive in the hearts of his devotees, that is a metaphorical use of the word alive which I agree with. But for all sane, intelligent reasonable people he is as dead as a door nail.
“But life and it’s mysteries cannot be just caged in logic and theologies.”
That’s probably what the brahmins of ancient India said when they created the caste system and devised terrible tortures for people of lower caste (if you have read the manu smriti you probably know about it too). That’s probably what the hindus, especially the Brahmins, declared when they supported the practice of Sati, or child marriage or polygamy. That’s probably what the white Christians claimed when they bought black slaves in open markets.
Life is not a mystery; it’s very plain and simple if you acknowledge it. If you search and seek out mysteries you will see these mysteries and patterns everywhere – even in the water that comes out of the tap. That doesn’t necessarily mean it is a mystery. Some poets may use something like that but that is not reality by a long shot. There’s no mystery in the suffering in this world. There’s no mystery in the natural calamities which kill thousands of people. What you call mystery I call it plain and simple reality.
Moreover, in this world we only have logic and reason to differentiate between what’s true and what false. You probably use logic too in deciding whom you should pray to. That fact that you don’t pray to Mohammed or Jesus Christ (at least you don’t have a blog on them) means that you yourself use logic to differentiate whom you should pray to. So how is Sai baba or any Hindu God beyond reason or logic.
“About miracles there were and are many miracles that were and are performed.But as Sai Baba said He gives people what they want so that He can give what he wants to give them.”
Ah! what poetic and beautiful double talk to confuse and confound his devotees. This sentence makes no sense at all other than to blind and deluded devotees of Sai who are always trying to find the divine, the mysterious, the transcendental in him and the “deeper” meaning in his words. If I understood it correctly, this statement is extremely shrewd in its application. It is meant to claim responsibility when miracles occur and yet deny his participation when they don’t occur. This is the age old trick of all these so-called God men. They make promises in such a way that it seems similar to the “heads-I-win-tails-you-lose” deal. So when a miracle occurs they can claim all responsibility but when it doesn’t, that’s always the devotees fault. It’s always “you didn’t pray enough”, “you didn’t believe enough” or “Sai in his divine wisdom knows best”. Oh Yes, Thats right.
“Here object of love is Sai Baba, engrossed in divine and love and care. Sooner or later the lovers will catch that quality. It is His way of driving people towards love and compassion.”
I have no problems with sai devotees believing that Sai baba was here to teach love and care. If that’s what makes them happy and content, then let them pray to whomever they want. If that’s what motivates them towards love for all humanity (which I doubt is the case), I am all for it. I also think that my parents taught me to love and care for others. That’s fine with me. My problem is with the false propaganda many sai devotees get involved in and the stupid miracles attributed to saibaba when they can be explained easily or are just normal occurrences. My even bigger problem is the millions of dollars and crores of rupees that are going down the drain to appease a long dead saint and which are finding their way into the hands of a selected few – money which could have been well spent on eradicating illiteracy, on medical research or in improving our judicial, political and law enforcement system. The recent Mumbai attacks should give us enough clues as to what our urgent needs are and where our priorities should lie.
Btw, Thanks for the link of avatarmeherbaba. I don’t necessarily disagree with all the philosophies pointed out in the webpage and agree with many of them – if only people followed them. However, I don’t agree that anyone is an “avatar” of the divine. Good, selfless leaders of humanity ? Maybe, Yes. But, an avatar with divine powers? Thats a stretch of imagination.
“Only if your love for finding faults is put aside.”
This is a typical allegation from believers. Every time, someone agrees with their position, he/she is purity personified. But, dare to question the false beliefs and deluded claims of believers and immediately the hypocrisy comes forward. Instantly a label of ignorance is stamped on the accuser. Immediately they are branded as fault-finders, uneducated-scum or dumb-doubters. It is always – (these are actual allegations from believers)
” How dare you question our guru? He is God incarnate”
” What do you think of yourself? You think you are some kind of genius? So many people couldn’t figure out anything and you think you did. So everyone is a fool to believe in him ?”
or
” Just because you have studied a little science doesn’t make you an expert at everything”
Ah what sweet accusations. Those are like honey in my ears. This just proves how the true teachings of the Guru is manifested in reality. Notice how each and every one of these are ad hominem attacks against the skeptic and none of them tries to address or answer the claims being questioned.
“P. S. Have chosen not to publish your comment on one of devotees experiences on my blog, not because it was not like or hated. But for a simple reason, that someone’s heart could get hurt by what has been written and that is not needed. He remembers Sai Baba and so it is His job to let Him know what is right or wrong. Not yours or mine.”
Thanks for the censorship Alpesh. I wish I could do the same to people for expressing their valid opinions in my blog. It’s not surprising though. Believers always want their freedom of speech and expression and yet are not hesitant or ashamed, even a tiny bit, when it comes to denying that same freedom to others. Hindus blame the Islamic government of Saudi Arabia and Christians blame the Communist governments of China for not allowing them to practice their religion and yet they do they same thing when they have the power. That’s extremely fair, right? In this regard I agree with Voltaire who said “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
Anyway, what you do with your blog is your opinion. However, I would like to request you to forward the comment to the person concerned, with your disclaimer of course, and ask him whether he wants the comment to be posted or if he wants to respond to it himself. I will respond to him, provided the comment is published.
Alpesh,
If religion has had the power to improve human life, why did life span of humans increase from 45 to 75 only in this century? Religion sure is much older. And why did this improvement have to coincide with development of vaccines and discovery of penicillins? And why did those discoveries have to occur in hospitals/laboratories/clinics and not in some church or temple (say, Shirdi)? And why did they have to happen at hands of hard-working scientists and not some devotee (while praying in the sanctum at Shirdi)?
Or do you want to claim that all these discoveries coincided with the birth of Sai Baba?
Also, do you want all your relatives you love to be right now ‘alive’ the way you and I are, or the way Baba is ‘living’? Please don’t use words only for effect.
TC.
panchalkc,
If religion has had the power to improve human life, why did life span of humans increase from 45 to 75 only in this century?
I was perhaps talking about the quality of life my friend. A human may live a 125 years, but with hatred, anguish, finding faults in others. A human may live with all the hospitals/laboratories/clinics (These are very religious place as they heal, they comfort). Hospitals, clinics laboratories all are much needed and are very religious places. simply because they work to help. They work to minimize the sufferings.
Same way for those who know, Temples and spiritual places are there with the same intentions but on a different level. A person may visit a hospital and deny or throw away the medications in the lavatory and still come out sick and uncured. That does not mean there is a fault in Hospital of the doctors. The doctors did there best. Similarly if a person comes out of a Temple or a spiritual place and hit a stone at a dog to injure the animal or kicks or abuse his/her servant or anybody does not mean the Temple is at fault. Or the Spiritual Master is at fault.
Hard working scientists working to help the humanity are religious people. Hard working scientists searching for some crazy weapon that kills millions causing great sufferings are anti religious. They are in touch with divine, divine is not confined to specific places. It is the state of being that tells if a person is spiritual or religious. For some people places like Shirdi is great source of energy to become more gentle, more caring, more compassionate. Compassionate to the point wishing better for those even trying to harm them.
other question
Also, do you want all your relatives you love to be right now ‘alive’ the way you and I are, or the way Baba is ‘living’?
It would be great if not just the relatives and you and me. But the whole humanity lives the way Baba pointed out. Not to hurt anybody, not even in thoughts. Getting hurt somewhere inside if we see somebody. Doing the job that we are given at the best with loving and peaceful hearts.
You represent for me the India of the future… but I am concerned that it will be a long time before people reach your level of penetration of the religious cocoon in which the huge majority of your people are enwrapped from birth. This is also a world-wide phenomenon, of course… for it is only a few hundred years since religion in Europe received its first serious opposition. Even today US Presidents swear on the Bible (it is not even constitutionally required).
May our forward march to freedom from the fear and crutches, the division and conflict, the oppression and mind control of religions proceed!
Thanks for your comment on my blog too
(i.e. http://robertpriddy.wordpress.com/) I also have a very extensive agnostic website, directed at critical investigation of Sathya Sai Baba at http://www.saibaba-x.org.uk/)
Thanks Robert for your comment. I am not sure if I am representative of the India of the future because people like me who challenge religious claims are few and far between in India. Most Indians are discouraged from challenging religion and most still don’t have access to internet and are not aware or open to of the vast amounts of knowledge/research available on the internet. The brainwashing of young children and the religious indoctrination at schools are also a major problem (although I am myself a living testimony that such things do not work all the time
). India still isn’t the place where independent thought is encouraged as it is done in a lot of western countries, although I must admit that the situation seems to be improving a bit.
You are also right in saying that it might be years or centuries before we can cast off the shakles of organized religion, if at all. There needs to be a political will to uphold and enforce the freedoms guranteed by our constitutions, the critical mass needed amongst children and youth to give this movement some momentum (as they are the ones most prone to religious indoctrination) and of course the money to support the freethought/rationalist movement and counter the propaganda machine of believers. I firmly believe that all humans are born with a logical faculty which are discouraged by parents,society or by religious authorities, which leads to blindness in matters of religion. Probably, the only way this vicious cycle can be broken is by showing people reason and logic, patiently and compassionately (tough things to live by when attacked continuoulsy by the religious right) and not through repressive tactics like in China, where repressive tactics have failed to curb religious belief.
Anyway thanks again for your comment. I will definitely visit your site on satya sai baba. Btw I didn’t know that you had written books on Satya Sai baba so I would like to commend your efforts in bringing the activities of the charlatan to the fore and exposing the fraud that he is.
Question your own existence mate.
BTW which US President cursed bible? Robert is the name of that president?
Way to go Nastik. Good Post!
Have you noticed that when things go bad on a large scale, God never takes the blame but when the occasional good thing happens its all God’s grace?
For instance, when the Tsunami hit 4 years ago hundreds of thousands of people perished. Yet when they find one child surviving atop a roof or something, everyone is effusive about how God intervened and prevented certain death.
Welll… if he could intervene, why did he not intervene in the case of hundreds of thousands of other hapless victims – especially children?
This question NEVER gets asked because it would be oooh-too-insensitive and a tad too logical.
@ Holydude,
Thanks for your comment. I absolutely agree with you. Recently when the plane crashed on the hudson river, people were quick to jump to the conclusion that it must be God’s miracle. But few stopped to ask, why did this interventionist God direct a flock of birds into the engine, in the first place. Why didn’t he intervene before the birds flew into the engine? Doesn’t that point to a narcissitic God who wants his glory to be praised? If that is true and God did direct the birds into the plane, God is like an anti-virus company which first creates a virus and then tries to peddle it’s own anti-virus solution.
Great great so happy to meet you intelligent guys,
Please shower more intelligence and shed your light on following posts too
http://alpesh-mynotebook.blogspot.com/2008/12/vanity.html
http://saibabashirdivideos.blogspot.com/2009/01/pujyaa-sri-sri-ravi-shankar-visits.html
http://alpesh-mynotebook.blogspot.com/2008/08/never-allow-thought-my-ideas-are-only.html
http://alpesh-mynotebook.blogspot.com/2008/04/since-sai-baba-fulfills-our-desires-he.html
@Alpesh. Look how you immediately attacked my character by pointing to my vanity (sending a link about vanity is the same thing) in not accepting your guru’s words. These are the typical ad-hominem attacks which I talked about earlier. Believers have been using such tactics since the invention of religion and even today don’t shy from using such tactic. They do it because they are incapable of using logic and reason to argue a position. Isn’t it vanity on your part to claim that he is correct and every disbeliever is wrong?
Anyway, since you censored my comments on your blog, I am almost certain that even if I answer your posts they will not be published. So , I don’t think a fair discussion with you is possible and commenting on your ad-hominem attacks is probably a waste of my time.
Oh brother sorry for attacking, i can’t be so humble like you.
i bow to you sir, i bow to you.
I thought vanity is vanity,
It may be against God or Religion
It may be for God or religion
Spirituality or religion is for getting free from the inner fear, insecurity, conflicts.
It’s on self basis, never an organized system.
Every individual if seeks to be happy, conflict free from inside that is spirituality.
An organized religion against some ideas or some non religious organization against religious ideas is same. There something working against and idea. Can we get free of it?
I do quite agree with your explanation of spirituality. But do we need any Baba for it? More so, one who’d perform miracles?
We do need something i feel. We may not name it as Baba or God. But there is something within us. For me i need Baba not because He did and does miracles. Actually While writing the last post Guru Poornima, it happened that i typed miracles were not miracles. You may read it on the post what the heck were they if they were not miracles.
To boil the water flames or heat is needed. Boiling of the water is important. Not if the boiling happened on which type of stove or which brand of stove or greaser or electric heater it happened. Similarly a change in human is needed, it does not matter how. Or we humans may think ourselves to be very intelligent with all the outer glory we have and still read about murders and rapes and what not. A scientist gives a good comfortable home to live in (not at all bad), spiritualism gives nice deep peaceful and loving sleep in these homes. If we have a nice comfortable home but cannot have a nice loving sleep we are in dire need of Spiritualism.
Here is my view – Alpesh. Genuine spirituality is about all those down-to-earth values whereby one does one’s best to advance society in everyday life… religion is about believing in events which cannot be proven – or scriptures about them. Do not confuse the two. I came to do so for two decades, but I have lived long enough to wise up. Religions are mostly about moralistic control of others, through promised rewards (which seldom occur) and miracles etc. and not least through fear of consequences or many kinds. One must ask where the ‘inner fears’ you mention came from originally. Mostly from religion. Countless conflicts are either caused by religious fervor – or are supported by religionists on either opposing side. Human values are NOT divinely ordained, they are human… based in human interests for survival, happiness, peace, freedom from oppression and glaring inequality. Religions have tried to subjugate these values to themselves and/or the absent deities or God in whom they believe. See some of the tricks involved here http://www.saibaba-x.org.uk/25/index.html
Robert Priddy
Yes you are right there,
Religions are mostly about moralistic control of others
Than that is not religion. Religion should not be about control but about transformation of energies that causes disturbance within and without. It requires much humbleness and understanding of self.
“One must ask where the ‘inner fears’ you mention came from originally. Mostly from religion”
We cannot jump on conclusions. We have to be watchful and aware of what fear does within us. It might be from anywhere, the so called religion is not the only cause. And that which breads fear is not religion or spirituality in the first place. It may be anything in the name of religion.
If something brings love and harmony within – that should be called religion. But often we go from one trap to another one. The conflict remains. We can forget the word religion or spirituality and seek what brings harmony within and without.
“Countless conflicts are either caused by religious fervor”
Religious frevor is when one’s mind is totally absorbed in peace, love and harmony otherwise it is a frevor for conflict which is against religion or spirituality. Yes we are making these mistakes. You are right at many points. But the questions is “Is conflict and answer for conflict in the name of religion or logic or whatever we may give it a name. The root thing is getting free from conflict. Inner and outer.
Religion has been used in most disastrous ways by so called religious people and priests. But going against them is not the answer i feel. Leave them alone and we should seek harmony within. And once there is harmony and peace within us, we find most people around us catching it. It’s not about victory over others but victory over the suitabilities that brings about conflict, which does let the harmony and peace within us.
You are very right about pointing some vital things. But speaking against will only breed conflict, which is the last thing we need.
Religion is a very individual thing. Yet it is collective. By collective i mean if fear is there it is there in most people. But the approach has to be individual, we have to be aware of from where it arise and where it strikes. And seek freedom from the same.
You have often told about your comment on the blog being censored. It is not because i did not value all that you said, but for one single reason my friend, that it could have hurt someone, and we don’t need that don’t we?
As for Shirdi Sai Baba. He was never for a religion or against any religion. He was for compassion. If people in His name makes mistake we cannot blame Baba.
Like wise if an Indian or an American commits crime, there is no reason for believing all Indians or all Americans are criminals.
Religion or spirituality has nothing to do with what others think or how others act. But it is for inner harmony, peace, love and compassion.
I feel you will agree with
“HOW TO LOVE GOD
Meher Baba
To love God in the most practical way is to love our fellow beings. If we feel for others in the same way as we feel for our own dear ones, we love God.
If, instead of seeing faults in others, we look within ourselves, we are loving God.
If, instead of robbing others to help ourselves, we rob ourselves to help others, we are loving God.
If we suffer in the sufferings of others and feel happy in the happiness of others, we are loving God.
If, instead of worrying over our own misfortunes, we think ourselves more fortunate than many many others, we are loving God.
If we endure our lot with patience and contentment, accepting it as His Will, we are loving God.
If we understand and feel that the greatest act of devotion and worship to God is not to hurt or harm any of His beings, we are loving God.
To love God as He ought to be loved, we must live for God and die for God, knowing that the goal of life is to Love God, and find Him as our own self. ”
Source http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/lovegod.html
@ Alpesh
I don’t have any problems with you respecting someone for his/her teachings. All of us respect someone for what they stand for. In fact, I agree with the a lot of baba’s teachings. I agree that there needs to be love, compassion, humility, patience in humans and humans should strive to make this world better for future generations. However, my problem is with
1. The existence of religion itself which uses God as a means to command baseless respect for some people and to subjugate people.
2. People considering Shirdi Sai baba as God in human flesh and the countless miracles we attribute to him.
3. the blind faith which gullible believers put in each of his teachings without critically reviewing them.
I reject religion so far as it is used as tool to justify wrongdoings, to launch attacks on a class or a race, justify murder and torture, deny equal rights to other humans, indoctrinate children into believing things blindly without question, arbitrarily engender supernatural events like miracle healings and happenings etc etc. As long as “religion” is fair, logical, compassionate, rejects the supernatural and accepts only the natural and is open to humane ideas based on equal rights of all humans, I don’t have any problems with that.
I do not believe that any human being is God (i.e if such a thing exists) and needs our blind faith and unquestioning devotion. Yes, that includes Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Krishna, Buddha, Shirdi Sai baba, Satya Sai baba or Ramakrishna etc etc. They may have been exceptional human beings but not people who can be endowed with any supernatural powers and who need to be prayed day-in and day-out. Devotion is not bad. All of us are devoted to someone or something. But when devotion becomes blind and stops questioning the object of devotion, that leads to totalitarianism and decay. Hitler, Stalin and other cruel dictators should show us the pitfalls of blind, unquestioning faith.
My bone of contention is also with the miracles which these so called god-men seem to be performing everyday. Why should we blindly believe that they are truly miracles when there are other explanations available. Why should we reject the probable and accept the improbable? why should we reject contradictory evidence to conclude that something can only be a miracle. Yes, my post on your blog was meant to point that out.
Btw, I don’t agree with your assertion that a comment needs to be censored just because it can hurt that person. We criticize politicians for bad policies, restaurants for bad food, employees for shoddy work, atheists for being unbelievers and yet why do we feel the need to protect a believer when his illogical claim is pointed out ? This is exactly the closed-mindedness of religion that I am talking about. Why is it so sacred that it cannot be criticized or pointed out? Would you like it if the government says that you cannot criticize the government or politicians no matter how bad their policies are, just because it can “hurt” politicians? If you are a father, would you not point out the mistakes of your child, even if it hurts that child? Have you thought of how this world will be if there is no dissenting opinion and no debate or criticism? Also let me point out that just because someone comments on your blog, does not mean that you support their views and you can definitely put that in your disclaimer. So please think about it and I hope that you can allow other people with different opinions than yourself to comment on your blog.
It seems you confuse me – Robert Priddy- with the author of this blog. I have not complained about any comment being censored.
I agree with your views on what is best for life but only MINUS religion and God. I do not see the need for any mention of God or religion in that context. We should harm no beings because it is wrong, not because they are any creatures of God. Once you are trapped in religious thinking, you attribute everything to God when it is really our own doing. Where, or what is God? It is simply a belief, but one which is bolstered by countless millennia of ignorance (and fear) about the real causes of events. Science has taught us the real causes only in the last few centuries – and our knowledge is expanding at a colossal pace towards further explaining all things we thought must be done by some God, spirits or other untestable speculation. The real evidence shows only that we are all products of evolution, not of divine creation.
We can now look at the sky and realise there is no one up there, though long believed because we could not get off the ground, physically or otherwise. We understand. for example, there is no burning hell, that the idea came from seeing volcanoes that caused fear. Yet religions still preach these things to billions of people.
I do not agree with your policy of not challenging false, unprovable ideas because it could cause conflict. Were that so, humanity would still be in the darkest of dark ages.
@Robert,
Very well articulated.I agree with you completely.
someone was talkin abt tsunami and why god did not prevent it..hmm..i guess it would be hard for you to understand natural disasters are a way to check population growth. without any such natural incidents it would be hard for the nature to keep up with ever increasing population..
how long are you folks gonna cling on to tsunami and blame god?..everybody is designated to live for a certain time based on ur karma..so if it is time for you to go you gotto go. most of you have only analyzed from a material point of view..questioning gods love just because you dont see him..
let me ask you this..your mom wanted you to perform better than your kid next door?..does it make her evil..she makes u good food but she only once in a while feeds orphanns or homeless people..sounds like she is heartless right?..well from a homless persons point of view shes wicked but in ur world she is ur angel..so how come ur ready to accept your moms love as unadultrated..ur ready to accept your mom and worship her..so do no make fun of peoples faith..coz if u are..then you are just making fun of your faith in ur loved ones..
faith is what keeping this world going and giving it some sanity..the faith is not corrupted people manipulate this faith..so if some one has to be blamed let us blame it on ourselves..
by the way we have been to moon..sent land rovers to mars..why could not we detect tsunami..coz we did not work towards it..we did not consider all the things..so god is not to be blamed..let us blame ourselves..we had the technology,man power and brains but we didnt consider tsunami because we assumes tsunami wont strike us..so there is my reply for the tsunami guy..
same reason why you didnt pass the exam coz you didnt study well..r u gonna blame god that he didnt come around and give the questions and answers in your dreams?..
if a saint who lived 100 yrs ago still influences people to do good deeds i dont see anything wrong in that though it can be disputed that he could be dubious..but does it matter..in the name of saint you serve humanity..isnt that great? are you gonna give up on your parents because they didnt buy you a ferrari?..so be dis interested in your views..faith in god is never a bad thing..
do we all have a probelm is god is narcissitc?..if you think this universe was created by chance..think again..right from every minute details is perfectly goverend..as you study more physics..astronomy..geology..biology..evolution..you will relaise how organized things are..ooh yeah so we can all say this all happed by a freakin chance..a coincidence that gave rise to more coincidences..yeah nice..we have people who dont believe in god but they beleive in luck..funny they cant prove luck exists either..irony eeh…
atomic physics is so fascinating..so organized..so perfectly functional that it is very inane to believe that it all happened by chance…if it all happened by chance it shuld have happened over night..but it oook long time..which means it was designed and impmented and executed neatly…
ur all talking like saints and gods do not have limitations…they do….and no holy scripture denies it…
someone posted about meher baba..see you think meher baba is right so you quote him same way there are million who think jesus..allah..shiva..vishnu..shiridi sai are worth beliving in..so doesnt make you right or them wrong..its a matter of choice and how u want to lead ur life…ur only right in ur own world and dont try to think you are the world…
so if a saint cures some one miraculously or by dubious ways the end is someone got cured..so do not harp about the way someone got cured..just be glad someone got cured…so if someone thought he passed the exam after 3 yrs coz he went to shiridi be happy abt it..why do you let your life be troubled by the views of his life..
@marv
YAWNNNN !! You know there was a time when I tried politely and patiently to reply to idiotic logic forwarded by believers. But the more time I spend, the more impatient I get with dumb, preachy and condescending way of talking by people like you. But since you have taken the time to write such a lengthy rant, let me thank you for your time and try to give you my reasons
1. OK. So God first overpopulates the earth and then kills millions of people to keep population in check. And inspite of this the population of Earth has grown from 1.5 billion to 6 billion in the last century. Some perfect planning huh?
2. What proof do you have that Karma is real? Don’t quote some idiotic person’s opinion or some fairy tale, give me solid verifiable evidence.
3. God according to believers is omnipotent and all-caring, my mom is not. So my mom is justified in caring just for her family, God is not (if there is one that is).
4. Faith is good, blind faith is not.
5. Your logic is hilarious. First you say that God keeps population in check through natural disasters and people die because of their karma but we can still save ourselves from our karma or from a wicked omnipotent God if we only use technology well ???!!! I am curious, how old are you again?
6. I have no problems with delusional people who serve humanity because they believe in an invisible friend. Thats great, by all means do that. My problems are elsewhere – with superstition, with blind belief and with commiting violence in the name of such invisible friends.
7. Good to know that you believe in evolution. Btw, the universe isn’t perfect. If it had been then 99.9% of species which ever existed on earth wouldn’t have become extinct, there wouldn’t be any disease, stars wouldn’t have exploded and galaxies wouldn’t have collided. Look closely and you will find enough problems with the universe.
8. Luck is not a physical entity that we can provide evidence for. Luck and chance are just two different way of explaining things. What you call luck I call probability.
9. Please define perfection. Just because some scientists can detect particles and write equations to explain their behaviour doesn’t mean that it is perfect. Btw, why would it have happened overnight if it was chance? And why did the omnipotent, omniscient God take such a long time in designing atomic particles ?
10. I didn’t quote meherbaba because opinions are not scientific evidence. I don’t believe in babas for that matter.
11. Yes someone got cured but not by a saint. No,it matters how he/she got cured because believers claim that they were cured by miracles and I believe that is idiotic and misleading. If they keep their miracles to themselves I wouldn’t mind but when people spread moronic claims and pass that as miracles. I have a problem with that.
karma puts you in the right place at the right time…so if someone got killed its his/her karma and our inability to tracl tsunami is our technological ignorance..can you prove good will exists?..like can you give solid proof a mathematical model for love..good will..sad ness..anxiety…same way it applies to karma..
karma is what u feel not what u can prove..karma is what u belive in..if u belive in love..then ur askewd than anyone else wen u say prove karma exists..
who says god was responsible for a population explotion..we have been given a healthy faculty to figure out things..and like is said god is not perfect he did the best he can..and he still does..it works 2 ways god helps and we reciprocate in a good way..you cant take god for granted…god is not flawless..but defly better than human beings which puts him in a better position to help us out…
everybody had their golden times so did the Trex so if ur worried abt a trex not surviving for you to see in the zoo am sorry..tht doest make the universe imperfect..
o by the way stars exploding causes new planets to be formed..i bet u didnt do ur astronomy homework well..the star dust from the explotion forms the basis for planetary systems..
now you are mocking at scientists who figured the atomic models..hmm nice..i think u shuld be some sort of genius to disprove thei equations which have been proved experimentally..now whos the fool here?..going against established experimentally proven facts..did you study some forms of arts or what?..there is no hint of scientific reasoning in you..evolution paved way for what we are nor.. “survival of the fittest”..is what snatched the dinosaurs…u probly think just coz they are big they are ought to survive ..think again..do your homework next time..read books and articles before u wanna quote science..
without a disease there wouldnt be a cure..so if there are diseases it is a chance for us to find a cure..what did you think every thing is factory like..u expect things to work smoothly..even there u still have problems..diseases have led to many medical discoveries..
your arguments are child like what you are doing is ridiculng and not reasning you are asking ridiculous questions and u cant accept a solid answer coz the very fear in you tht god exists has prompted you to write this blog…coz ppl r stubborn and they would goto any extent to stick to it though they know they are wrong..
peace out and never mis quote science..seriously!!
Great job Marv.
You misquote me, distort my logic , put words in my mouth, make up your statements from what I said and then blame me for misquoting. What more can we expect from believers.
Btw, your method of scietific enquiry is amazing especially with regards to karma and God.
I will let the smart readers of my blog decide what I said and what you made me say and which logic is more sound. Please read my comments again and Thanks for visting my blog.
Sri Sai Satcharita is a my weapon of choice when a Christian tries to claim superiority by saying that Jesus was a man who lived and performed miracles. Just read Satcharitha and you find a man who lived in the last century and who supposedly performed miracles. (http://www.saibaba.org/saisatc.html)
Sai Saptah (reading the book in 1 week from Thursday to Thursday) solves almost all the problems in life. Bow to Sri Sai, peace be to all
Merv’s reply #20 is precious!
god is not perfect he did the best he can..and he still does.
@HA
LOL….wonder why Sai requires exactly a one week deadline …Go figure !!
Arthur C. Clarke wrote many things about religion, one of which is worth posting. It is:
I take no position on this subject. My field of interest is the psychopathology known as Religion.’
‘Psychopathology? That’s a harsh judgement.’
‘Amply justified by history. Imagine that you’re an in¬telligent extraterrestrial, concerned only with verifiable truths. You discover a species which has divided itself into thousands – no by now millions – of tribal groups holding an incredible variety of beliefs about the origin of the uni¬verse and the way to behave in it. Although many of them have ideas in common, even when there’s a ninety-nine per cent overlap, the remaining one per cent is enough to set them killing and torturing each other, over trivial points of doctrine, utterly meaningless to outsiders.
‘How to account for such irrational behaviour? Lucretius hit it on the nail when he said that religion was the by¬product of fear – a reaction to a mysterious and often hos¬tile universe. For much of human prehistory, it may have been a necessary evil – but why was it so much more evil than necessary – and why did it survive when it was no longer necessary?
‘I said evil – and I mean it, because fear leads to cruelty. The slightest knowledge of the Inquisition makes one ashamed to belong to the human species … One of the most revolting books ever published was the Hammer of Witches, written by a couple of sadistic perverts and describing the tortures the Church authorized – encour¬aged! – to extract “confessions” from thousands of harm¬less old women, before it burned them alive … The Pope himself wrote an approving foreword!
But most of the other religions, with a few honourable exceptions, were just as bad as Christianity … Even in your century, little boys were kept chained and whipped until they’d memorized whole volumes of pious gibberish, and robbed of their childhood and manhood to become monks…
‘Perhaps the most baffling aspect of the whole affair is how obvious madmen, century after century, would pro¬claim that they – and they alone! – had received messages from God. If all the messages had agreed, that would have settled the matter. But of course they were wildly discor¬dant – which never prevented self-styled messiahs from gathering hundreds – sometimes millions – of adherents, who would fight to the death against equally deluded believers of a microscopically differing faith.’
Poole thought it was about time he got a word in edgeways.
‘You’ve reminded me of something that happened in my home-town when I was a kid. A holy man – quote, unquote – set up shop, claimed he could work miracles – and col¬lected a crowd of devotees in next to no time. And they weren’t ignorant or illiterate; often they came from the best families. Every Sunday I used to see expensive cars parked round his – ah – temple.’
‘The “Rasputin Syndrome”, it’s been called: there are millions of such cases, all through history, in every country. And about one time in a thousand the cult sur¬vives for a couple of generations. What happened in this case?’
‘Well, the competition was very unhappy, and did its best to discredit him. Wish I could remember his name – he used a long Indian one – Swami something-or-other -but it turned out he came from Alabama. One of his tricks was to produce holy objects out of thin air, and hand them to his worshippers. As it happened, our local rabbi was an amateur conjuror, and gave public demonstrations show¬ing exactly how it was done. Didn’t make the slightest difference – the faithful said that their man’s magic was real, and the rabbi was just jealous.
‘At one time, I’m sorry to say. Mother took the rascal seriously – it was soon after Dad had run off, which may have had something to do with it – and dragged me to one of his sessions. I was only about ten, but I thought I’d never seen anyone so unpleasant-looking. He had a beard that could have held several birds’ nests, and probably did.’
‘He sounds like the standard model. How long did he flourish?’
‘Three or four years. And then he had to leave town in a hurry: he was caught running teenage orgies. Of course, he claimed he was using mystical soul-saving techniques. And you won’t believe this-’
‘Try me.’
‘Even then, lots of his dupes still had faith in him. Their god could do no wrong, so he must have been framed.’
‘Framed?’
‘Sorry.- convicted by faked evidence – sometimes used by the police to catch criminals, when all else fails.’
‘Hmm. Well, your swami was perfectly typical: I’m rather disappointed. But he does help to prove my case -that most of humanity has always been insane, at least some of the time.’
‘Rather an unrepresentative sample – one small Flagstaff suburb.’
‘True, but I could multiply it by thousands – not only in your century, but all down the ages. There’s never been anything, however absurd, that countless people weren’t prepared to believe, often so passionately that they’d fight to the death rather than abandon their illusions. To me, that’s a good operational definition of insanity.’
‘Would you argue that anyone with strong religious beliefs was insane?’
‘In a strictly technical sense, yes – if they really were sincere, and not hypocrites. As I suspect ninety per cent were.’
@ Robert
Very nice article. Although I am confused. Was it written by you or by Arthur C Clarke?
It’s all by Arthur C. Clarke (but for the intro. “Arthur C. Clarke wrote many things about religion, one of which is worth posting. It is:”)
Robert
@robertpriddy & Nitwit
I PITY U GUYS!!!!!!!
u have a long way to go..
hallo boy..
what if u meet with an accident tomorrow and lie helpless.. ok, lets say limbless…
how would ur parent react?? would she muster all your so called “Accumulated knowledge resources” and plead them to come help.. or run to the LORD and seek intervention????
if she would do the second.. go.. first clarify your views with her. make her understand and then try to let the world know ur views. u cant talk in ur own home.. instead u have come peeing on the web.. just becasue they spared u some space!!!
people.. dont waste time reading this useless guy’s blog. one day he is sure to learn!!
So.. here is a ‘dead’ man.. blogging and writing about the Ever living, OMNIPRESENT, OMNIPOTENT!!
Alpesh..
I shall tell, you better dont waste your precious time in writing to this useless guy. His company makes no sense to us.
Barking Dogs and the Shining sun.. just ignore Alpesh. You have a 100 better visitors on your blog.. so, comeon, we all need your time.
Thanks Archana,
am writing for the love and compassion. Am writing for what divine points us to do. Am not here to prove any point, not arguing with anybody. Just letting it happen through me with the divine love and love within me. The work happens and it will take care. am nothing just a medium.
Alpesh , isn’t it hypocritical that people who talk about love and compassion are the nastiest commenters on my blog like the reader above. You freely comment on this blog and criticize me yet when I commented on your blog, you didn’t publish the comment. How very kind and compassionate of you.
Dear
i m just feeling pity for u. how poor u r. very poor. today i feel u r the most unlucky person in this world i cant understand why god has weasted his time for your mind.
if u cant respect someone its not that u bark like dogs for them. u can just keep quite.
@Neeta, Archana, Princess
Thank you for yor wonderful compliments. How much I love receiving hate mail.
People like you keep proving my point that religion transforms good people into blind hateful bigots. But, then what more can we expect from followers of the sai.
My dear friend, i can understand your feelings. Please my friend, i pray you. You can’t prove that god never exists. Then why do you say against the forms of god. I never hate you. a quote for you “After performing many deeds of merit you are born as a human and if you act like this,how can any divine thing help you in any way?”. I shall pray to god so that you may get good mental health.
Sai Bhakth, did you read my post?
Can you prove that fairies do not exist or unicorns do not exist or santa claus does not exist …but you don’t pray to them do you?
After performing many deeds of merit you are born as a human and if you act like this,how can any divine thing help you in any way
how do you know it’s true? shouldn’t divine beings have the power to do anything?
I shall pray to god so that you may get good mental health.
Thank You sir/madam for your prayers . You pray for me and I will think for you.
“My even bigger problem is the millions of dollars and crores of rupees that are going down the drain to appease a long dead saint and which are finding their way into the hands of a selected few – money which could have been well spent on eradicating illiteracy, on medical research or in improving our judicial, political and law enforcement system.”
The Shirdi Sai Sansthan is in charge of all donations received. It does put the donations the right way. They receive millions in donation daily from devotees all over the world. A minor part of it is utilized for administrative and maintainence of the temple, office, and employees (because everyone work they need pay, people need a clean place of worship, and good security).
The majority of the money is then distributed in various categories – feeding the poor, clothing and shelter for the needy, medical assistance, education, orphanage assistance, protection against cruelty to animals and other charitable services and organizaitons.
If anyone requires charitable assistance, you can apply to them formally in writing for assistance. They usually have procedures to evaluate the nature of the request with the individual or the company and then proceed do provide the kind of assistance required (most often monetary assistance).
On a first had basis, last year I had a personal friend who was hospitalized due to liver and kidney failure. He passed away 10 days after being admitted in the hospital intensive care.
Due to his critical condition his family had no option than to hospitalize him, even though they were going through severe financial issues (with the hope that they will arrange money for fees in the meanwhile as his treatment is progressing).
After he passed away, his wife was not able to arrange funds enough to pay the high hospital bills.
Someone suggested her to approach the Shirdi Sai Sansthan. She wrote a letter to them, stating her financial condition, her husband’s death, and her incability to find any immediate relief for this issue being a single widowed household wife with a young child this was her last resort.
Within 7 days, after the Shirdi Sansthan confirmed her husband’s case with the hospital, and evaluated her financial situation, her total dues had been cleared by the Sai Sansthan as requested for in the letter.
They do thousands of such deeds daily with the donations received. The amounts are not retained for a selective few to spend on luxury. It works as a professional organization for the right purpose.
It’s suprising how often if we don’t see something we assume it doesn’t happen.
So does it mean that you would support a person more who steals Rs 5000 and give back Rs 4000 to charity than a person who does not steal and does not give anything or gives little?
Charity does not exonerate anyone of the false excuse on which the money is being taken.
1. It’s not stealing. Money is offered. No one asks for it, and there’s no excuses being marketed.
If you dont want to pay you don’t. If you want to, you have peace of mind that it will be utilized rightly.
2. Charity is done on various levels. On an indiviual level, and a large organizational level.
Both have their advantages and limitations. On an individual level there’s only a certain reach and scale a person can accomplish at a time.
On a large organizational level, the donations are larger, the reach is far greater, the facts are more clearly defined, the progress is more effectively monitored, the finaces are accounted, and most importantly there’s an immediate a greater purpose to assist millions of individuals at once than going one person at a time.
For all of these expanded benefits – a fraction of this amount utilized for proper administration is definately not stealing. To manage millions of donations is not easy. There’s salaries, utilities and lots more. This is not a profit making organization, so some costs will be incurred in expenses, management, fraud control – but that organizational ability is what makes sure there’s maximum benefit to those who need it most. The costs in most cases are minimal in comparison to the output of this effort.
Just like you get paid at your job to serve a larger purpose that meets the vision of your company. You company works for profit, this organization works for charity.
Both work, and to do it correctly both need team effort for a collaborated benefit to its maximum potential.
So I would definately agree if an organization accepts 5million in donations, spends about 50k in appointing and maintaing a team that works hard to ensuring that donations made with faith and trust are correctly distributed and accounted for – so the right people (who need help from charities) benefit from it.
who said the donated money comes from stealing?
people can make profits and donate money…u don’t need to steal to donate…
and making profits can also be done thru hard work…
and if u don’t believe in donating then definately there is something wrong with you!!
How did I miss this post?
And of course the comments after! But Sir, arguing with a believer is like wrestling with a pig- etc etc… Anyhow I commend you on your patience and cool in the face of the ridiculousness spewed. Btw, if you replace Sri Sai Baba with Mataji Nirmala Devi , the other Sai Baba, other babas and god people( this is curiously a profession without much glass ceilings, there are women and men gurus) you would get the same miracles and reactions. And yet each insists that the others are charlatans.
NN. Can I just point out, I don’t see you being disrespectful to any religion or any moral leader. I see you as pointing out the obvious which other people are thinking BUT don’t have the guts to write it or express it mainly out of fear of what people will say and think about them.
I believe in religion, as you’re aware, BUT I don’t believe in such miracles by “god”. For me a miracle is if someone is a cure for cancer or for HIV & AIDS. Or even when someone who only has 1% chance to survive from a major accident and somehow still survives and leads a normal life. When one gets sick, most people visit a doctor to find out what is wrong with them and take medicine for it. Not prayer for hours on end and hope for the best. You can say I’m a bit of a hypocrite for saying I believe in and follow religion and then question it.
And I kind of see the funny side to your post. And the fact that such people exist. I also find it quite educational. I guess being a science student, I tend to analyze thing and question them.
Now I don’t know much about Sai Baba. I know there use to be a program on TV that use to come on (don’t know if it still does), I have watched a few episodes and actually like it. Same way, I use to like other things about the supernatural, warriors and fairies, etc. Call it being a kid. BUT don’t remember much about it.
All I can say, it’s not the first time I’ve heard about such people to go to such exstremes by saying God did this and God did that. BUT I do find it a little unfair people are actually attacking you personally. Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion. Even I challenged your beliefs but I don’t think (I hope I didn’t) attack you personally. I just find it a little harsh to do that.
Thanks Badz. I actually don’t mind being disrespectful (within limits that is) since respect for someone needs to be earned and should not be automatic. But everytime I have been disrespectful of someone, I have tried to be logical and given reasons for my disrespect. For the same reason, I don’t mind others being disrespectful towards me as long as they give their reasons. Moreover, it would be foolish of me to expect that everyone will agree with me or be respectful of my beliefs.
As for personal attacks, I actually quite enjoy them to tell you the truth. Why? Because a personal attack without valid reason is an indication that the person has run out of solid arguments or has no good arguments to show. YOu will see very few open-minded, honest people launching into personal attacks. They will always put honesty before ego when they are wrong. In fact, personal attacks are the last resort for anyone who has lost the debate but still wants to show his/her superiority by attacking the person instead of his/her argument. That’s why I publish every personal attack on this blog. It reflects more on the person making such personal attacks than me, which I am sure every intelligent reader of this blog can discern.
So you link it when someone is actually attacking you because it illustrates how low a person can stoop just to win a debate. When in reality they have loss. (You actually get the buzz really. that you won.
)
And yes you are right. Very few honest open-minded will stoop as low as personnel attack.
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” – Matthew 7:6 (Psalm)
Guys dont waste your time throwing pearls as you know what’s gonna happen. To each to its own.
Mahindra have you heard of this quote allegedly by Gautama Buddha
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
I don’t think you have. Please throw your fake pearls at someone else. I surely can live without them.
hey nastik,
This thread is hilarious, defensive believers and a steady unbelieving you. You probably chose to not believe cause you had/found reasons not to owing to experience/research, or both. It makes perfect sense to me that believers choose to live hand-me-down faith… If that’s how life is simpler, why not??
I am with you on your doubts, we dont need religion for what it means today, but there is a purpose somewhere, meaningfully so, to the needing heart, in whatever form he chooses to need/see it in. As a source of forced discipline, a substitute for missed solace, ostensibly maybe..
I can explain to you perfectly scientifically the rainbow and the shooting star! but I still wish upon them!just for kicks…
Hi
Thats is cool stuff.. Well i am a small bhakt of my Sai .. whom i love and respect a lot ..
You mind is correct and wrong .. well there are few people who have ego and they don’t want to open their heart to any thing in life .. but still gets blessing from GOD ..
See u don’t believe in GOD thats my SAI but how many sai devotees responses u have got .. GOD has already showered his thoughts on u ..
Well i can only say u just visit Shirdi once with no thoughts ( i mean absolutely Blank mind ) and see eye to eye on baba’s samadhi statue .. i guarantee u you will change believe me ..
Om SAI RAM
Thank You for have a blog which discusses what could be on ,many people’s minds but they refuse to discuss it. Billions of people are killed every ten thousand years because of the blind leading the blind. Though it is good population control it takes the truth from good minds and distorts it so it ends up having greed and power as a purpose. Everyone has their own truth just as water seeks its own way to the river.
dear nitwitnastik,
i request you read thru dis fully ! and read it with little bit of emotions…. as dis has not been written to prove anything against u or 2 counter ur logic !!!
i think u shud visit shirdi once ! or any baba temple for that matter ! i bet you’ll change your mind !!
this is from a person who did not believe in baba until recently ! i was like you scorning @ my uncle who was a devotee ! i used to call him a madman behind his back!
but i changed my mind due to some incidents that happened in my life ! { u may scorn @ me} ! but i only pity you since you hav not felt anything dat i hav felt ! {not dat u need 2 ! }
all i can tell you is i’m not sum 70-80 year old lady ! am 17 !
2 years bak i faced da worst kinda trouble ever !! i used to study for hours ! i used to put my heart and soul into my studies but never managed to score well ! i became depressed ! i dunno how…… but i started praying 2 babaji ! n u believe it or not…………. i started improving !! n now am waiting to start classes in a prestigious engineering college ! u myt shrug it off calling it a mere coincidence! but trust me……. only if u xperience something u’ll understand how i feel !
now…. i am not one of those people who say i found sacred udhi under my pillow !
ultimately……..god is ur own conscience !! if u believe u hav conscience, den u hav 2 believe dat god resides within u ! n god in my case is babaji !
i am not trying 2 preach to you…… nor am i trying 2 prove babaji’s existence 2 u !
i am merely voicing my opinion !
thnq 4 reading all diz patiently….!!
urz ,
!
vaishnavi !
Vishnavi,
I have been to Shirdi atleast 10 times if not more. My family used to visit Shirdi every year since I was 5. I was a total devotee as you may say. And now I laugh at myself that how illogical, how idiotic I was. I like the way you have been humble in commenting to Nitwit. I dont know him personally but I do read his blog and find him very rational. Actually what I love more about this blog than his writing are comments by deluded crackpots like you.
Another miracle I encountered I was applying for IIT JEE and wento Shirdi just before that. I did not get through. Second time I went again and did not get through. Third time I did not and I got through. At that time too I thought “Oh Baba is so great that he made me pass even without me visiting Shirdi”…. Now I think about it and feel WTF was I thinking.
As you suggest one should experience Shirdi (or whatever other religious deluded people might tell everyone to experience) , I would suggest read the following books
God is not Great: By Christopher Hitchens
God Delusion: By Richard Dawkins
End of Faith: by Sam Harris
Once you read them and can answer even a single question they have I promise I will go back to Shirdi and “experience” whatever is there again
I personally am not religious but i tend to think that we are all one and belong to the same life force. You do not need to believe in god for that. I think that Satya Sai Baba is not genuine but i feel that even in the case of Shirdi Sai Baba people tend to take their beliefs to fanatical proportions. My personal view on Shirdi Sai Baba was that he was a simple and wise man who wanted all the people to live in harmony. Thats it. Whether he was capable of performing miracles or not, this i will never know. But his lifestyle was austere and so i have no trouble considering him genuine. But there have been people like him on and off. I could best compare them to Shamans from Indigenious cultures. Even an Atheist needs god to keep refuting beliefs. An Agnostic is worse because he sits on the fence and jumps on that side the day he finds something more interesting. i would’nt trust Agnostics because they are a confused lot.
I am neither an atheist ,agnostic nor a religious individual. Even technology does not have the answers. Find the truth out for yourself and by yourself if you have the urge and stop looking for models and trust yourself.
Cheers !
Bhuvanesh
funny.. very funny post..
misguided philosophy, terrible lack of understanding of the premise, baseless logic, .. all in all, a classic example of ‘bad thinking posed as logic’..
for example :
I quote :
Believers often forget, that just because they respect a person doesn’t necessarily mean that othersare bound by some law to respect that person as well.
Reply :
Well, not just believers, every one expects so!! Thats called social standard and manners. FYI, thats called ‘culture’. Being a cultured human being (and not being a socialized screwball) means to respect other’s beliefs, the deeper they are, the deeper the respect expected.
Say, im sure you hold a high opinion of your mother and father, etc. That doesnot, ofcourse, mean that I should too, right? Then can I call them bad names or talk rubbish about them?? I can, technically, but I wouldnt, if I am cultured enough.
So many people hold Sri Sai Baba in high esteem. And someone writes rubbish about Him, without first studying either religion or philosophy (preferably both), then who is blind?
Say, I didnt do any DNA tests on you and your parents. But I still, by social standards, expect that that man is your father, just cuz your mother says so, right??
If I am inclined to believe otherwise, just for the sake of manners atleast, I should venture out with some solid tests and logic to prove it otherwise, all the while taking care of manners.
But, if one, just by one’s own twisted ideas and opinions (like yours), starts saying that since it is not ‘proven’ yet, that guy cannot be said to be your father!! Is that sound logic? Is that ‘culture’?? Its not. Wake up.
You want a logical discussion, you are more than welcome to .. http://www.saimasterforums.org and discuss. We dont take hard feelings there. You can come and discuss ‘rationally’ and ‘respectfully’ (without using foul language) and we all welcome you there. I personally am looking for any single person to show me where I am wrong in trying to follow Masters like Sri Sai Baba of Shirdi and Sri Ekkirala Bharadwaja, Sri Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa, Sri Ramana Maharshi, etc. and am willing to throw their photos out on to the street if any one can tell me why. If one can prove the existence of God as false, I will be more than glad to throw all of my beliefs out. So far, none. (Dont give me richard dawkins crap.. i can shred it into little bits if he can argue about my beliefs). I am not willing to waste my life, whether in the name of God or not. If some one shows a better way of living, im ready to jump ship. Can you do that? Can you change your views if I convince you otherwise?? Can you publicly do so??
If you are intellectually honest, as I am, please come on board (free registration) http://www.saimasterforums.org and discuss.
Thank you Nastik!
Jai Sai Master!
DJ
@Vaishnavi: Sai baba is a fraud and a prick. Prove how YOUR HARD WORK did NOT help you score well but SAI BABA’S POWERS did and it should be verifiable with a double blinded experiment. We can then talk. Until then, i will declare you are deluded and your mumbo jumbo makes no sense.
Good post nitwitnastik,, true that its becoming more difficult in India to express your thoughts about religion and superstitions, I don’t know why, but the crowds attending AOL ’s teachings, Guruji’s miracles, educated people trailing behind Ishayoga and wondering about the miraculous dhyanalinga[mercury solidified in room temperature !!!], holy ash producing sai baba photo frames, Baba ramdev curing AIDS through Yoga.. most of the devotees of these gurus are educated, privileged young people.
Nitwit, you are a far patient and better person than I am. thats all I really have to say.
Dear Know it all nastiks,
Its been quite entertaining to see u people and an innocent sould like Alpesh go back and forth with ur opinions about God and religion and the world minus God and Religion.Let me just try to elaborate why people “like” to believe in God. First of all, accept the fact that it doesn’t have to make sense or that they are somehow incapacitated or blinded by their “faith”.Everybody is an ignorant fool ..what is being argued here is not whether people should go sane or insane by either relinquishing or accepting their faith.
Nastiks as a general rule are cynics who probably cant find anything pure or untaintedly good about things in life or maybe they do and they just like being different.Anyway , the point i’m making is people beleive in God because they believe in good, good things happening in life,everybody getting what they deserve, having to smile without too much of a reason…which are all good things..and if they go ahead take it up a notch through their religions,it’s no skin of ur nose..But u are free to express ur freedom of speech. Guess what, I am too…and dude..heh..I’m no Alpesh but i do belive in God, miracles and everything else that the nastiks can’t seem to believe in.And let me tell u how stupid this whole blog is.The very Idea that believers make up a bigger pecentage of the world for one, the very idea that u people cant bribe/force/convince/ in fact whatever u do will not bear any fruits. Its futile.Ur very words which say that people beleive in God and Religion in futility have “futility” as the foundations. What are u driving at here… what philosophy do u people preach..absurdism, narcissm, come onnn….wake up..they’ve been done and they’ve been beat down.Can u come up for a better philosophy or even hope to wait in ur lifetimes for a theory of everything that explains everything in this universe…all u nastiks’ very existence on this planet is a waste dump of excretion if u cant somehow tie urself to the source of all creation and that’s what God and Religion promise to people and give hope for….U cant promise anything better and u cant bring in a better deal.The universe is a multitude of alternating layers of order and chaos. No one can predict what can happen next. But people will hope for the best and good to be the outcome always …for themselves atleast..and that hope comes forth like a prayer to U KNOW WHO.
so cool down nastiks,ur lives are stupid and insignificant as they are just like everyone else.Don’t make it worse for urslef.
Good bye.
Can’t believe i even wasted my time on ur blog on u pansies who probably spend ur lives eating three square meals a day,shopping for ur stuff in walmarts and shitting in ur pots and belive that these make up for all the sense and mystery of the world.
haha
Ashwin,
Several points you make absolute sense – really! But your irrational ranting in the last few sentences is what makes “agnostic” people like me flee from die-hard “theists” like you – it’s a turn-off for anyone that is trying to think rationally!
If something doesn’t get proven in a life-time or a few life-times (by science), doesn’t mean it’s the end, and so the other theory is the “only way” to go!
Well, what does one use a rational mind for then?
Within the limited life-span we humans have, and yes, with the limited resources, HELL YEAH, it takes time to get things done! If I could get it all figured out in 70 – 80 years, I could be GOD – don’t you think???
This is no war, and no one should have to prove anything that doesn’t hurt another human being. To me, it is the “religious bigotry” that several die-hard “theists” indulge in.
Purely from an agnostic mind-set, going back in time and now, a lot of harm was done/and is being done by religious fanatics from all over.
Why didn’t God give them any common-sense then?
Again, no one has to prove anything to another, as long as you are not hurting another human being – don’t you think?
Dear all,
Shirdi Saibaba was undoubtedly a very wise spiritual master. According to my understanding, he spoke more about religiousness rather than any orgaized religion. Religious behaviour is all about respecting fellow human beings, being compassionate, not getting angry or provoked unnecessarily etc. He also spoke about God being the supreme power and the controller of everything. Nobody has conclusively disputed the absence. Many great scientists like Einsten, Bohr, Heisenberg have infact become more God believing after all their scientific pursuits. So Shirdi Saibaba can never be faulted or ridiculed for what he spoke and preached. It is a fact that all of us have different levels of intelligence, physical powers, emotional intelligence etc. Some are better than others. Extending the logic, I do not rule out someone like Saibaba having some highly evolved faculties and powers which make things happen that are not possible for you and me. His exhibiting those powers was essentially to attract people’s attention so that he can talk and communicate his message about religiousness, God power etc. The message is always well received if you are in awe or love the message preacher. My opinion is Saibaba was a highly evolved and powerful human being and a great spiritual master. I agree that every occurence need not be attributed as a miracle. My mother is a great believer in Sai and she was first diagnosed with cancer in year 2000. Since then she has undergon chemo and radiation. She believes that Sai has been the real doctor who has cured her. Buddha talked about interdependent origination. In mathematical terms, y is a function of x1, x2 etc. So something can happen now if many things have happened or many things are in place. This means for a cancer cure to happen, the patient has to be treated by the right guy at the right time. The right guy should be in the best of health , should have accumulated the knowledge and the practical experience to effect the cure. Further the patient should have the necessary physical and mental strength to face the diseace and be receptive to the treatment. Now believers attribute the existing of so many ‘ coincidences ( according to nonbelivers) ‘ to be a miracle. I am not sure who is right, though.
I have read about Shirdi Sai. I agree with you that he was a master. As far as miracles go, it is one’s conditioning ( mind) that decides how we percieive an event or occurence. It could be seen as a miracle by some and it could be seen in another light by others.