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Srila Phabhupada And His Baseless Claim

April 23, 2009

I have often observed that most believers, when they come in contact with a guru or spiritual master, never question the veracity of the information presented to them or the motives behind the guru’s words. They assume that everything presented by the guru is somehow the unvarnished truth. Even when they do find something incredulous, to challenge a guru is often considered disrespectful in Hindu culture and may often lead to being ostracized by the guru’s community. Peer-pressure and self-delusion keeps them from opening their mouths even when they are presented with certain information that seems totally baseless or concocted.

 

Srila prabhupada (Via Famous-people.info)

Srila prabhupada (Via Famous-people.info)

 

Anyone who has carefully read the Introduction to the ‘Bhagavad Gita As It Is‘   by Srila Phabhupada, the founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), knows what I mean. In his introduction to the Gita, Prabhupada made a bold, albeit suppositious, claim that the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya* ( disciplic lineage through which spiritual knowledge is passed)  to which he belongs,  started with Lord Krishna himself as the original spiritual teacher [Bhagavad Gita As It Is, 1989, soft cover: Page lxi

Lord Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the original teacher of a chain of spiritual masters that continues to the present day. Jut as an unbroken wire delivers electricity, so, for the benefit of all mankind, this unbroken disciplic succession delivers the spiritual knowledge of Bhagavad-gita

 

In order to prove his claim he went on to list the names of all spiritual masters belonging to the sampradaya, who received knowledge of the Gita in an unbroken disciplic succession from Krishna to himself. The list can be found here on page 31 of this version of Bhagavad Gita As It Is

 

  1. Lord Krishna
  2. Brahma
  3. Narada
  4. Vyasa
  5. Madhva
  6. Padmanabha
  7. Narahari
  8. Madhava
  9. Akshobhya
  10. Jaya Tirtha
  11. Jnana-sindhu
  12. Daya-nidhi
  13. Vidya-nidhi
  14. Rajendra
  15. Jayadharma
  16. Purushottama
  1. Brahmanya Tirtha
  2. Vyasa Tirtha
  3. Lakshmipati
  4. Madhavendra Puri
  5. Ishvara Puri (Nityananda, Advaita)
  6. Sri Chaitanya
  7. Rupa (Svarupa, Sanatana)
  8. Raghunatha, Jiva
  9. Krishnadasa
  10. Narottama
  11. Vishwanatha
  12. (Baladeva) Jagannatha
  13. Bhaktivinoda
  14. Gaurakishora
  15. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati
  16. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

The reason why Prabhupada stressed so much on the importance of learning the Gita from a person of an *authorized* disciplic lineage is not hard to guess. It’s what every power-hungry and fanatical spiritual leader has claimed since the beginning of civilization. The claim that – spiritual knowledge received from anyone other than an authorized person is devoid of any benefit – has probably no other goal but to bury the competition. It’s done with the singular, sinister intention of establishing a group’s religious beliefs as the one and only true form of belief and their interpretation as the one and only true interpretation.  There is no other reason. There cannot be any other reason. Otherwise, why would disciplic succession matter to the truth of an argument or to the interpretation of a body of knowledge (even the religious maniacs have enough business sense to understand that too many people overcrowding a market is bad for business. After all a man’s gotta eat !)?

Coming back to the list, a cursory glance of the list looks pretty authentic. A lot of the names are well known to any serious Hindu devotee. But, the problem arises when we pay close attention to the list. The first 3 names on that list represent totally fictional characters. There is not a shred of historical evidence that Krishna, Brahma or Narada ever existed (for some entertaining read, here are two deluded devotees, an  astrologer  and another scholar , trying to prove the historicity of Krishna). The 3 characters can only be found in Hindu mythological texts and legends, written by Hindu authors most of whom lived hundreds of years after the birth of Christ (which if Hindu scholars are to be believed was almost 3000 years after the birth of Krishna) and hence thousands of years after the birth of Krishna. 

However, a greater problem arises when we look at the historical dates when these spiritual masters lived.

Madhva(1238-1317 AD), the 5th in the line of spiritual masters was born almost 4300 years after the 4th master on the list – Vyasa (existence of whom is also somewhat dubious) . So how could a person who lived  almost 700 years ago be a direct disciple of  a master who lived almost 5000 years ago? How could a gap of almost 4 millennia between two masters be claimed as an “unbroken disciplic succession” ?

You will be terribly mistaken if you think that such questions ever perturb a believer. To a devotee, the answer to such questions is like bailout money to the American treasury  – print readily, distribute freely.  No evidence is ever asked for and none is required. All that is needed is a person’s faith and someone claiming with conviction that it is the truth.

 By Madhva’s own account, he, the self-proclaimed divinity on earth (who like every other crackpot guru claimed himself to be an avatar – for his case an avatar of Vayu, the Vedic god of wind ) met Vyasa while traveling across India and Vyasa at having found a worthy disciple then passed on his divine knowledge to Madhva. But was this the Vyasa of Mahabharata fame and if so how was Vyasa alive for so long ? Oh That’s simple. You didn’t know that ? Vyasa is supposedly immortal (that should put an end to that !!)

In fact, this discrepancy was put to rest by Prabhupada himself in a letter to one of his disciples (emphasis is mine) [Letter to Dayananda, 12th April, 1968 Link]

Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system—namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him.There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.

Ah ! the typical reaction of dishonest gurus to anything that contradicts their claims. Dismissing them as trivial and “oh, that’s nothing and you don’t have to worry about that.” 

Why shouldn’t we wonder about those gaps when the bedrock of your assertion of being an *authorized* spiritual master rests entirely on the claim of belonging to an unbroken disciplic succession? If the answer to that fundamental question is just assumed on faith, how can someone claim to be an authorized source? Also, what was the evidence available to Prabhupada, other than Madhva’s own admission, by which he claimed that Vyasadeva was still living and that Madhva actually met him? Isn’t it deceitful and dishonest of someone to pick up any random prominent acharya and claim that he belonged to an unbroken line of spiritual masters from Krishna in the guru-shishya parampara(disciplic succession)? Especially, without verifying his credentials or when evidence for such a claim was absent. What gave someone like Prabhupada the confidence to claim that it is so ?

The only thought which comes to mind from such a line of asinine reasoning is that it’s no reasoning at all.  It is either a type of deception or a form of self-delusion that many so-called gurus like Prabhupada indulge in (although going by his answer, I would say it’s more deception than delusion).  It is called  “I-will-believe-and-make-you-believe-whatever-I-want-to-believe-irrespective-of-evidence” . The problem with such blind faith is not only that it’s blatantly dishonest, but that it can be easily manipulated by a guru to justify almost anything he wants or does. And, *that* in my opinion is what makes faith so dangerous.

 

**************************************** 

* The reason it is called Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya is because Lord Brahma, the creator of this universe, was supposed to have been the first disciple of Krishna and had originally received the knowledge directly from Kishna. When Madhva joined this lineage, it came to be known as Brahma-Madhva sampradaya. After Sri Chaitanyajoned the lineage and further invigorated the movement, the lineage came to be known as Brahma-Madhva-Guadiya sampradaya since Chaitanya was from Gauda ( the name by which Bengal – present day West Bengal and Bangladesh – was known during his time )[Ref]. However, here is a report that casts doubt even on the authenticity of the sampradaya that Prabhupada belonged [pdf Link].

 

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47 Comments leave one →
  1. April 23, 2009 8:03 am

    Very good argument, congratulations

  2. April 23, 2009 8:22 am

    Jai Sri Krishna!! 🙂
    I have read both the versions of Gita, Gorakhpur as well as Phapupad and allI could Interpret was that Sri Krisna was really intelligent he screwed Arjun badly 🙂
    Poor Draupadi btw, I really pity her 😦

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      April 24, 2009 7:00 pm

      LOL 🙂

    • tghw permalink
      February 10, 2011 6:47 pm

      mr.tarun,
      mind your words? wat do you mean by screwin….and all that stuff .. if u do not know abt the original facts its better to keep quiet..

      and..
      mr nitwit nastik….
      who gave you authority to talk all useless things on lord and his devotees ? are you acquianted with the original facts in 1st place ???

  3. myminddroppings permalink
    April 23, 2009 9:01 am

    Where there are men with a sexual appetite, there will be be Prostitutes. Similarly, where there are people with an appetite for superstition, there will be Gurus, Swamis, Peers, Acharyas, Babas, Seers, Soothsayers, astrologers, palmists…. the list is endless.

    A product is usually a reflection of the market.

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      April 24, 2009 7:08 pm

      Yep, that’s right. Although I think superstition is the effect not the cause. The cause is probably our feeble minds which always needs an emotional crutch to support itself.

      • myminddroppings permalink
        April 24, 2009 8:00 pm

        Yep. The line of causality I was referring to was:
        Feeble minds -> Superstition -> Gurus, Swamis and other pimps.

  4. April 23, 2009 11:02 am

    “Biased Opinions of an Amateur Agnostic” — At least get your basics right first…?

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      April 24, 2009 7:09 pm

      was that a question?

  5. April 23, 2009 3:59 pm

    He claims to be an avatar of the god of wind???

    ROFL!

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      April 24, 2009 7:11 pm

      LOL !! Oh That’s just one. There are countless loony masters like him in hinduism 🙂

  6. April 24, 2009 6:24 am

    Hi I was wondering if you would do a series on the so-called gurus- there is a plethora of them- all conning people- Srimataji Nirmala Devi, The Sai Baba, and so on….

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      April 24, 2009 7:29 pm

      Thanks for the suggestion. Although, frankly there are so many hindu gurus that I am not sure if it’s even possible 🙂

      • April 25, 2009 6:58 pm

        You could begin with a few- I think a balanced,, wittily written expose is a good idea- not like the weaning away from sites, but an external perspective.

  7. May 8, 2009 1:41 pm

    Nitwit, you’re busted. I know for sure you’re the marketing manager of Prabhupada & Prabhupada Ltd. You know how to manipulate innocent theists into buying your product. You know for instance how a typical Hindu would read ”
    Prabhupada has claimed that he’s the avtaar of Vayu” as ‘Prabhupada is the avtaar of Vayu’ (isn’t it getting a bit windy here!).

    How do I know? I’m Vyasa. Immortal, remember?

    Bhaktjanon, I’m back. Learn from the original master (me, of course). If you learn contraband Geeta from contraband masters, you’ll get contraband moksha! Order your authentic moksha today and get a discount of 2 janams. This offer valid only till I’m blown away by next fart (it’s very windy out here, remember?)

    Wondering what am I doing on this Godforsaken Earth? What happened to my moksha? You’re fired! No moksha for you!

    My mortal incarnate says: nice work! Will keep track of your blog. TC.

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      May 9, 2009 8:12 am

      Panchal

      Welcome to my blog and thanks for the comment. That was hilarious. LOL !!:-D

      Hail O Great Vyasa !! I hope your mortal incarnate will grace this blog with his/her presence from now on. I am flattered that you have considered this blog worthy of your comment. Maybe you can re-consider my moksha after reading this blog.

      • May 9, 2009 2:20 pm

        Nitwit Vatsa,

        I’m differen from other Gurus. I’m not open to canvassing. Oh yes, but did I mention I’m open to bribing? Drop your two pennies or paise or whatever currency you deem fit at my blog at blogspot (afterall, I’m bankrupted after 4000 years of ascetism 😦 ) at my cyber-abode at blogspot, and I’ll reconsider your moksha in a favorable manner.

        Reconsideration seems to be in the air. And, I’m reconsidering my profession. There’s no job satisfaction in installing moksha assembly-line fashion.

        Any suggestions for a new job?

        Till then, apna karm karte jaao, aur phal ki apeksha kewal guru ko karne do!

        TC.

  8. min2sia permalink
    May 19, 2009 4:37 am

    Ok, so if all the gurus are jugglers and fiddlers, which are here only to suck us into their web for their own profit, who should we turn to for answers to most important questions, like “why people are suffering” and “what can we do to stop it”? Do these questions bother you at all?
    Modern science is still lightyears away from answering these. CNN and Fox News also are little help here 🙂
    Do you trust anyone? Who then?

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      May 21, 2009 6:08 am

      min2sia, I apologize for forgetting to answer your comment but thanks for commenting. Although frankly, I don’t see how your comment is relevant to the post.

      Btw, you assume that gurus have the answers to these questions. I believe they don’t. They can be better answered by psychiatrists, doctors, philosophers and policymakers so why put some ignorant guru on a pedestal and treat them as God.

    • tushar sharma permalink
      January 23, 2010 8:31 pm

      Bona fide spiritual masters never seek their profit they always seek your profit…
      Do they charge you for becoming their discples..?? NO !!!
      they just say to follow the four regulative principles and offer devotional service to krishna and chant His Holy names….that’s it and what are the four regulative principles….??
      1. no meat eating… Jesus Christ said us that “though shall not kill” so if we kill animals for are sense gratification then we will be punished under the strict laws of nature …so where’s the spiritual masters benefit..?? it’s always your benefit
      2. no illicit sex.
      3.no gambling ..
      4.no intoxication…
      that’s all they ask for they work day and night because they love us not because they want some benefit out of it…
      and if you want proof about existence of god then you should follow the instructions of Bonafide Spiritual master and you will realize yourself, Realizing God is a Practical experience, you don’t need theories or logical explanations or proofs for it , it is pure and true faith not blind faith.
      and taking about profit i think execpt pure devotees of God And God himself ,all of us are always thinking of our profit not of others, saying rubbish things about someone without even knowing the truth is utter nonsense .
      read his divine grace ac bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada ji’s books first and try to read it without mental speculating, then you will understand the truth
      i recommend you to visit prabhupdabooks.com and krishna.org if you seriously want to know anyhting about god because knowledge is there but rascals and demons try to deny the existense of authourities and try to divert them from everlasting bliss, happiness and love Lord shri krishna, trust me Just try to follow and chant the name of god hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare/ hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
      faith will develop itself and you will realize the presence of god not only in your heart but in eveyone hearts too..you will know how much bleesed are the people who follow the instruction of bonafide spiritual masters and are devotees of the GOD

  9. anvesh.k permalink
    June 6, 2009 6:43 am

    anvesh.k,
    when a person stands in darkness he can’t see any thing, just like you all people are standing in darkness you can’t see the real nature of god. people don’t know how there food is getting digested, and they posses them self as intelligent, how can a less inteligent person guide the society ,that is why all the nonsence is going around the world.try to understand god ypu can understand ever

    -thank you very much for reading this comment, may hope change comes in atheists.

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      June 6, 2009 8:22 am

      how can a less inteligent person guide the society

      That’s exactly what I have to say about Prabhupada 😀

      may hope change comes in atheists

      I hope the same for blind believers too ..

      • Lotuschild permalink
        March 14, 2014 11:19 am

        Prabhupada and ISKCON are like the Westboro Baptist Church of Hinduism. And there is nothing anyone can say to an atheist to make them believe in God, similarly there is no argument, no proof, no.. dare i say it, logic in understanding or knowing Krishna.. it is impossible to know Him by the mind. But when you have a direct personal experience of Him.. then there is a kind of knowing which transcends argument, proof and logic, I am not here to scream at you to understand and know Krishna, that will achieve nothing, but I can assure you that there is nothing whatsoever that is real other than Him, you may not believe that, and thats fine, i respect your right to do so, but regardless of what historical evidence, of lack thereof there might be, regardless of what claims you make about Hinduism and gurus – while i do agree with some of your statements – there is nothing you can say, do or categorically argue to me that will make me discard the conviction with which i regard what i have directly experienced in my own life to be the absolute truth. But all I can do is say that, having been an atheist for many years, I realized that the viewpoint of atheism is also saturated with “I-will-believe-and-make-you-believe-whatever-I-want-to-believe-irrespective-of-evidence” The only way you can remain atheist is constant blinding yourself to the evidence, constant reassertion, constant denial. Unfortunately this is present in religion also, and the fact is that people are just idiots, and whatever belief system they can hijack to make them feel intelligent and to divide and cause disharmony with others, they will, whether it is religion or atheism. The fact remains however, that the impersonal side of Krishna, the universal Brahman, is 100% explainable by perfectly sound logic, there is no faith, blind or otherwise required in terms of that Brahman, it can be seen plain as day, not by someone in an “unbroken chain of disciplic succession” not by any religious proselytizer, not by any misguided deceitful “guru” but by each individual Human Being. We are also part of the world, part of the universe, part of reality, and therefore part of the ultimate reality (whatever that phrase may mean to you) and therefore it stands to reason that by excessive and deep introspection, by reflection to the deepest point of our own nature, we can discover for ourselves, experientially, that deepest reality which is called “God” unfortunately, religious and atheists alike are terrified of this kind of self-study/observation, so if you really seek after the truth, dont pigeon hole yourself into one group, one side of the fence, just be a Human Being, and pursue the ultimate truth, by progressing moment to moment on the subjective truth, as it is to YOU at that moment. I feel no need to argue my faith to anyone, because I am completely confident that the ultimate truth is the same for everyone, and if we all progress from moment to moment on the tide of subjective truth, eventually we will all come to the same objective truth, a truth that applies to all regardless of caste, creed, gender race or religion. This is only achievable if you are genuine about seeking the truth, and hold no irrational bias to any sect or worldview presented by anyone else, whether that be a religious on or atheism/agnostic, and if you are perfectly willing to discard your old beliefs when new evidence presents itself (evidence to YOU, from personal experience, that is). . . so yes, just like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, Hinduism has also been infiltrated by devious and evil men seeking only profit and power and idiots seeking something to stop them finding their own truth, but atheism is equally infected by both idiots and exploiters of idiots. So stop labeling yourself anything, and just be a Human Being, seeking the Ultimate Truth. So yes, although the impersonal Brahman can be irrevocable proven in philosophical debate as a real thing, there is no need to engage in something like this, because direct personal experience is all that matters. As for me.. I have experienced Krishna, and to say that I am convinced of his existence is incorrect. You can be convinced that unicorns are real but that doesnt make it true.. but if you see a unicorn, feel its horn, hear its whinny, then no amount of philosophical or critical debate can or will make you just disregard the experience you had will it? no..

        • nitwitnastik permalink*
          January 22, 2015 2:02 pm

          “I feel no need to argue my faith to anyone”

          Hmmm!!

          Sorry I couldn’t agree with your viewpoint.

      • Lotuschild permalink
        March 14, 2014 12:56 pm

        “how can a less inteligent person guide the society

        That’s exactly what I have to say about Prabhupada :-D”

        Prabhupada was an idiot, and he gives Vaisnavism a bad name, but having looked at your site Nit Wit Nastik, I dont think you are very intelligent either.. infact you are incredibly close minded.

        “may hope change comes in atheists

        I hope the same for blind believers too ..”

        I do not hope that atheists change and believe in God, I support atheists and respect their right to freedom, but there is also such a thing as a blind atheist, and that is what you come under Mr. Nastik, for those people i encourage a change, yes. Because you have not sought truth and come to a conclusion, you have come to a negative assertion about religion, and then put up a big fence saying “do not touch” around everything and anything spiritual or esoteric, that is not a truth that you have found, it is an assertion as to what is not truth. Religious people also have put up a fence around everything scientific and said “do not touch” again, that is not a spirit of genuine, earnest seeking after truth. Both of these are biases. If you are however, someone who has found a personal understanding of a religion, any religion, in a genuine search for the truth, then respect to you, and in the same breath, if your atheism is not based off of hatred for so called representatives of a religion, and in fact just based of a genuine search after your own personal truth, then respect to you. If you are genuine and sincere about your search then i have no doubt that you will eventually come to at least give Sanatana Dharma/Advaita Vedanta a fair chance.

  10. Diego González permalink
    October 13, 2009 10:39 am

    What about Chaitanya?
    Not so many time going back.

  11. Diego González permalink
    October 13, 2009 10:41 am

    What about Sri Chaitanya?
    There`s not so many time going back…

  12. Satishchandra Roy permalink
    October 14, 2009 1:22 pm

    Mr. Nastik Nuthead,

    It’s obvious from the garbage you have written that you don’t know anything about the scriptures nor the prominent personalities in the scriptures. Do yourself a favor, get out of this hidious habit of blaspheming saints, it won’t do you any good.

    Satishchandra Roy.

  13. Diego González permalink
    November 6, 2009 9:48 am

    “Madhva(1238-1317 AD),”

    where did you get that date from…?

  14. Diego González permalink
    November 8, 2009 5:40 pm

    “Madhva(1238-1317 AD)”

    Where did you get that date from…?

  15. Krishna-das permalink
    November 11, 2009 10:34 pm

    I feel pity for you.

    Why such a strong resentment toward anyone speaking of God?

    I do commend you for having taken the time to read and research some Gaudiya Vaishnava lineage. I just hope that one day you can open your heart beyond the limited perception of your mundane senses.

    Which gurukulas did you attend?

  16. Raj permalink
    December 17, 2009 8:41 pm

    I think you need some intelligence before rattling away your usual nonsense.
    Evem Parampara praptam means those in a disciplic succession. Unbroken as per the above means the meaning is not contorted and its being passed by prominent acharyas. The message is bonafide because all other 4 paramparas have the same viewpoint eg ramanuja, madhva etc and the conclusion is Krishna/Vishnu is the supreme.

    Athesist dogs will not understand because your karma is kicking in with a feeble natured mind hence the ignorance. Maya has covered you nicely.. 🙂 which is good cos really Hinduism dont need asses like you. Sitting in front of a PC and typing whatever you want to.. analogous to a mad man ranting away in a psychiatric ward dont you think my friend?

    Perhaps before commenting on Vedic philosophy , you might want to approach a spiritual master to understand. Dont go and speculate and rattle vomit as what you are doing.
    First rule of Vedas is to enquire the truth by accepting a bonafide spiritual master.. who have you accepted or are you just an ignorant idiot that you are because it is reflecting all over your site.

    Get off your chair and do some research… rather than writing trash derived from a misled polluted brain.

    Honestly i have pity on you.. why dont you write to me personally and we can debate on how nonsensical your so called Logic is. You dont even know the number of hair on your head and you want to talk about Vedas.. you are like a kid wanting the sky.. well truth is you are really far from it.. real far.

    cheers
    raj

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      January 6, 2010 8:26 pm

      LOL !!

      Thank you for your kind words dear sir. I am sure Prabhupada would have been proud of you and your language !! You definitely have learnt a lot from your spiritual master.

      After all, like master like disciple.

  17. Kenji permalink
    January 12, 2010 11:34 am

    Does anybody knows if muslim people speak about Caitanya period?
    In that times, muslim people become vaisnavism bakhtas.
    Do muslims speak about that in their texts?

  18. tushar sharma permalink
    January 23, 2010 7:59 pm

    You don’t even know anything ……..and you write these useless lies….
    you are just like an animal who BARKS whithout knowing the truth…….
    have you ever tried to follow god….??…..rascals like you are always saved by the mercy of pure devotees of lord Krishna…first try to FOLLOW and LEARN HOW TO RESPECT then you can know the truth in full…
    you are the greatest fool in the world…because you are depriving yourself from the love of GOD or KRISHNA…but look he always love you even if you are writing nonsense like that……you don’t know how great they are because you are ignorant ….
    Ignorance can be moved by this process, chanting Hare Krishna. How it is? A man is sleeping. How you can awake him? By vibration of sound. Mr. such-and-such, just get up. Get up! The time is up. Although he is now practically unconscious, he cannot see, still, the hearing process is so prominent that a sleeping man can be awakened by vibration of sound.

    you yourself know you are providing wrong information to general public…
    IF YOU AT LEAST SPEAK TRUTH TO YOURSELF THAN YOU WOULD KNOW YOU ARE WRONG

  19. joseph permalink
    June 28, 2010 8:06 am

    Dear Nitwitnastik

    Thank you for writing this information for the public to see.

    I was a disciple of the founder Srila Prabhupada and part of the Iskcon movement for many years. Finally I left in disgust with all the corruption, lies and unloving behaviours of his senior disciples, my godbrothers.

    It was only after 25 years did I finally do my own research to come to the same conclusions as you. I had allowed my young self, to be misled, although very sincere at heart in loving and serving whom I believed at the time was God. I distributed thousands of Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad Bhagavatams all over the world.

    Much of the mythology with the Vedic world is very similar to the mythology of the Greeks, Egyptians and other ancient civilisations along with a very organised priesthood with elaborate priesthoods etc….

    The strongest claim to the ancient authority and history of the Vedas is in the acknowledgement of an ancient text, claimed to be written anywhere from 3000 BCE to what more modern scholars state would be 1500CE. However, this literature is mostly written about demigods……so where did all the other information in Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam come from?

    What period in real historical time frames, was the Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam literatures written in? What are the dates of the oldest palmleaf manuscripts of these texts, found and available in modern libraries or archives?

    You will find that there is a gap of thousands of years from what is currently in existence as the oldest manuscipts and when these texts were stated to be written.

    You will find for example, that Lord Rama appeared in the beginning of the Treta-yuga in this current cycle of the day of Brahma, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, about 1.2 million years ago…….and we are expected to believe that all this was recorded accurately by a character Vyasadeva, whom we can’t substantiate his reality or existence by any normal historical or archaeological evidence. Plus the gap in time when this happen and when it was written was over a million years ago……….!!!

    It’s very hard for those who are a part of or who support such movements to look into the information objectively, as there is so much at stake. i.e. Am I and have I been following an untruth all these years ? Have I invested so much time, love and energy into what I believed, lived and preached, to come to the conclusion that this is mostly all a lie? I have told and convinced so many others to also follow this path. What have I done?

    And then one thinks, but wait a minute, there are so many wonderful, sincere and loving people who I know for many years who also believe in this path and they couldn’t be wrong ? All true, sadly enough.

    The interesting reality that one has to deal with is separating the lies from the truth. For there is knowledge and theological truths contained with the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. But then again all the untruths are there as well.

    There is so much mythology and so much information that can never be supported by any means of unbiased archaeological or historical evidence.

    Leaders within the society or movements will give all sorts of philosophical treatise on the authoritativeness of the Vedas and the path they proclaim. And it will sound all very convincing. But the truth of the matter, is that the foundation is all based on mythology mixed with a devotional lifestyle that aims at pleasing a god, who is mythological.

    I feel very sad for all those sincere souls who have join such a movement to find truth and God, only to be following a clever CIRCLE of mixed lies and truths.

    However, I must state that the path of “love and devotion to God” is a good path that a living entity should follow.

    Best to start over on your search for Truth and God and ask our beloved Father and Creator…….to show you the real Truth and to reveal Himself to you.

    Much love to you all.

  20. joseph permalink
    June 28, 2010 8:11 am

    “The Rig Veda”, was meant to be added into the text above.

    See:
    The strongest claim to the ancient authority and history of the Vedas is in the acknowledgement of an ancient text, called the Rig Veda, claimed to be written anywhere from 3000 BCE to what more modern scholars state would be 1500CE. However, this literature is mostly written about demigods……so where did all the other information in Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam come from?

    • tghw permalink
      February 10, 2011 6:55 pm

      who said that so called modern scholars have dated the vedas as after 1500 ce get your facts right .. maxmuller himself stated that vedas are much before 1300 bc git it ???

  21. Arjuna Fan permalink
    September 4, 2010 11:14 pm

    I can think of nothing in this 3rd dimension that is perpetually stagnant. I can think of nothing that is not subject to the influence of time except for that 3 dimensional space itself that time works in. This combined with the seeming dualistic nature of 3 dimensional existence (positive and negative stimuli) indicates to me that there is some original intelligence at work behind things.

    Nothing is perpetually stagnant (not even corrosion and decay) and the friction or resistance brought on by negative experiences which bring about growth and change along with the continual passing of time indicates to me that there is some reason for existing or meaning to existence. I was raised up as a christian and I was taught that there is such a thing as an eternal hell. That is perpetual stagnation where nothing changes or grows.

    When I look around me at nature I see nothing that is perpetually stagnant but nature is always changing, growing and recycling itself. I do not believe that my soul is at all separate from the natural world around me. I believe that my soul or spirit (If I do in fact have one) will also be recycled just as all things in nature constantly are themselves.

    Reincarnation to me seems what is most logical therefore as opposed to an eternal hell and perpetual stagnation. Basic beliefs in Hindu way such as reincarnation and karmic law seem most logical to me and I find myself leaning in that direction as opposed to christianity. I don’t believe what modern science and history teaches about the origins of human life on earth.

    I believe that Hinduism contains the echoes of this worlds true history. I see a similarity between Ramayana, Mahabharata, Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. The forces of evil attempting to control and dominate life and the forces of good resisting them. I don’t have to take these stories literally or believe that they really happened to believe in the messages they convey. Modern day super heroes such as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are the new gods so to speak. Their stories are modern day mythologies. I don’t have to believe that Superman is real to believe in the principles and ideals that he embodies.

    That is why this post does not alter my leaning towards belief in Hindu way or my belief that there is a Supreme Being at all. From what I have read, atheism is both acknowledged as valid and tolerated in Hinduism. To me Hinduism is freedom of spiritual or religious belief and it does not seek to proselytise, convert or force itself upon others. The fact that there are millions of gods (aspects of God) in Hinduism shows that it is not perpetually stagnant but is something that grows and evolves and that which can grow and evolve.

    That is a part of why I prefer it over other belief systems and why this post and blog is valid to me without altering my perceptions or beliefs at all. The Supreme Being is definitely beyond my comprehension and therefore as my reality indicates seems utterly indifferent. The seeming indifference of this Supreme Being does not discourage my belief in it at all. As someone with Hindu leanings I have multiple points of view as Hinduism itself does and allows. I think you would appreciate “What is Man?” by Mark Twain and here is a website that I recommend to you. It is called “Mark Twain and Spinoza” http://www.yesselman.com/TwainSpn.htm

  22. True Rationalist permalink
    September 10, 2010 8:48 pm

    Hi All,

    In interest of general public, what Srila Prabhupada has claimed can be verified like any other historical things are verified. It is typical mischeif of pseudo-rationalists to create doubt in mind of innocent people. But let’s see what these fanatic and pseudo-rationalists are upto. My question to Nit Wit Nastik:

    What about Jayant Narlikar’s claim that the apple tree planted in IUCAA campus, Pune, is the same apple tree under which Newton sat and discovered ‘Theory of Gravitation’? Can you experimentally prove that this is the same apple tree? Or for that matter can you really prove that any apple really fell in front of Newton? This only proves that pseudo-scientists and pseudo-rationalists like you are selective and biased in scientific approach.
    Well I am a true rationalist as I don’t take anything on blind faith whether science or religion? But you are a pseudo-rationalist and fit perfectly to the analogy of blue fox which made a temporary impression of being a King and later got exposed. Similary all superstitons and fraud within science and rationality are getting exposed and rationalists are getting kicked.

    As burden of proof is with the person who claims something, I am giving you links for my claims:

    1. “Newton’s” apple tree in IUCAA:

    http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19980120/02050994.html
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Newton-s-gravity-tree-dying-in-Pune/Article1-220772.aspx

    2. Reality of “falling apple myth”:

    http://www.trivia-library.com/b/sir-isaac-newton-theory-of-gravity-and-the-falling-apple.htm

    3. Not sure which is Newton’s apple tree

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton#Apple_analogy (Read the last paragraph of this section)

    As a reply to my comment, you will do following things:

    1. You will not reply (means you are defeated :))
    2. You will reply about things that are not in context (again you are defeated :))
    3. You will call me names, “irrational”, “unscientific”,”Superstitious”. But this is not scientific method. This is typical of pseudo-rationalist behavior (means again you are defeated :))
    4. You may give me some links to support your claim. But that is only your faith as no one can really claim about such things. This prove’s my stand that you cannot prove experimentally, Jayant Narlikar’s claim. (Soooo…. again you are defeated :):))

    • nitwitnastik permalink*
      November 19, 2010 12:42 pm

      LOL !! nice way to pre-empt discussion..GLTY

      • Lotuschild permalink
        March 14, 2014 12:15 pm

        Hahaha I find it ironic that, you’re talking about unbiased truth and so on so forth, but that you are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to open your mind to the possibility that you dont know everything, or that you have more research to do. The post above is perfectly rational and entirely knocks you off your intellectual pedestal, if you had any integrity whatsoever you would at least either A) admit that you are biased and that the above poster was correct about some double standards perpetrated by you or B) Posit a counter argument to him at least listing some points and proofs, at least DEFENDING your own point of view, and explaining why you believe yourself to be on the rational side of the argument. But your reply “LOL !! nice way to pre-empt discussion..GLTY” just proves what an idiot you are. I would like to add to “True Rationalist” s post by saying that unless you entirely understand the physics and mathematics of the big bang, evolution and particle physics, i,e the three main powerhouses of science, then to claim this is the truth without understanding it yourself is a contention based on blind faith. In the same way to claim that Hinduism is the truth without fully understanding Vedic science is also a contention of blind faith. SPEAK. FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE!!!! ALL ELSE IS JUST FOOLISHNESS!

        • nitwitnastik permalink*
          January 22, 2015 2:04 pm

          “admit that you are biased”

          Did you check the title/header of this blog?

  23. February 24, 2012 1:57 am

    In my opinion Bhaktivedanta’s explanation of para, apara, and paraapara to a Western audience was masterful.

  24. deer tree permalink
    January 28, 2013 10:59 pm

    the more nonsense you believe, the holier you are, in prabhupada’s religion. to doubt or question is to be demonic. the believers simply become parrots repeating all the mythology of the books and the stuff prabhupada said. it is all rather pathetic to see adults hanging on every word he said, unable to see that he is no different from any other guy who bought into a religion, filled his mind with its ideas, and then spread the meme to others. prabhupada was quite ingenious in his methods of inculcating an attitude of holy ignorance in his followers by making the ‘mayavadis’ seem like demons instead of just human beings with a different take on life. the prabhupada parrots run around feeling holy because they have faith in nonsense and don’t question it. the further along they go, the harder it is to wake up from the fantasy. most waste their lives with it.

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